I'm wondering if the idea of making a counter offer matching the Chinese offer ever crossed the execs/govt's mind?
The primary value prop China is offering to these engineers(money) is the easiest to counter. I doubt many engineers would want to move to China if they can get the same money in their current jobs.
It seems to come back to (as it often does), the makers, the people actually doing the work not being valued in proportion to their contribution.
It's baffling that execs and govt's will do everything, including prosecuting departing engineers, but balk at the simplest fix which is to pay their key people better.
We've had a case in Australia of an ex-US forces pilot trainer arrested under extradition laws because he is said to have taught Chinese pilots how to land and take off from aircraft carriers.
Think about it for a minute: His one portable skill, the IPR behind doing a thing, a mechanical act, is deemed to be an ITAR risk. Knowing how to do it, is a weaponised concept in strategic planning.
And ask yourself: Can this apply to VLSI design smarts, or OpSEC, or DEVOPS?
I'm pretty sure at this stage, it applies to Cryptography so basically, be good at maths, you have no right (specifically right: you may be, you may not) to go and work in China.
It's been true for past knowledge of workplace. NSA (see above) and probably US forces (see the start) and I would suspect, other things too. If you worked at the FTC or department of state, don't try for a working holiday abroad without permission.
This is nothing new. The British banned skilled textile workers from immigration to US.
Edit: The British also banned export of advanced textile machines during the industrial revolution to US. It's very similar to the US/Europe banning ASML machines from being sold to China.
Probably backfired, with people from other economies filling the hole, and opportunities for bilateral trade affected. Ironic given the majority of the pre industrial revolution silk weavers in London were Hugenot migrants, settled in Stepney.
government preventing people from taking the maximum amount offered for their labour is incredibly communist, it's exactly what cuba does with their doctors
It really depends. Spies creating moles in government agencies by giving them money is same principle. An employee just went to work for highest bidder.
> And ask yourself: Can this apply to VLSI design smarts, or OpSEC, or DEVOPS?
Sure. People are asked to sign NDAs pertaining to those all the time and I don't see why that's any different from classified military routines. Carrier based landings have zero civilian applications - it is a skill practiced by military pilots and no one else. You cannot be a carrier-certified pilot without understanding that your skillset is a domestic security asset.
>> And ask yourself: Can this apply to VLSI design smarts, or OpSEC, or DEVOPS?
> Sure. People are asked to sign NDAs pertaining to those all the time and I don't see why that's any different from classified military routines.
As somebody who has worked at several semiconductor design companies and has met many engineers who have done the same... I don't understand your take.
Of course we do sign NDAs, which prevent us from discussing trade secrets. But our "smarts" do hop from one company to the next job, how couldn't they? We have been hired because we are experts in a particular domain and have acquired knowledge and know-how in that domain.
So if our next employer happens to be a foreign company, what do you expect us to do? I am a Canadian national and never worked for a Canadian company.
Let me finish by saying that I was pursued for years by a Chinese multinational and I turned them down again and again specifically because of their close ties to the Chinese government. That went against my personal values and I could afford to say no, but I won't judge anybody who took the job, because at the end of the day we are all just trying to feed our families.
I read a newspaper article yesterday about a woman of Vietnamese descent who repatriated to Vietnam.
I thought that symbolised the economic shift from West to East very well.
Her grandparents were boat refugees from Saigon who were picked up in the South China sea by a Dutch cargo ship and now the new generation is going back to Ho Chi Minh city because the future is Asia.
The Netherlands is rich to be sure but it's all old money.
There are more opportunities for growth in Asia. Europe is very developed. Little opportunities for building something. Regulations make it hard.
It's easier to bring ideas learned while living in the west back to the east, especially a place like Vietnam where it's very much still a 3rd world country.
Doesn’t necessarily mean that. I met a girl in Austria whose parents are from Bulgaria. She wants to return to Bulgaria because it’s “easier being poor there”.
I've been really interested in spending a few years living and working in China however it has been nearly impossible to get a visa so I gave up that idea.
don’t bother. I made that mistake (spent a decade there). It just made me realise that values are so much more important than money. It made me angrier and angrier over the years living in a society like China. I just had to leave. Never support an authoritarian regime.
Not that poster, but the heavy handedness of the state makes the US government look like a picnic when it comes to a lot of things with regards to civil society.
So many people here were angsty about Covid lockdowns here, but those were nothing compared to in China. Similarly if one doesn’t like the president or an official in the US, one is free to go around denigrating them as much as they please - not a wise choice in China.
One needs to police their own tongue and accept draconian rules.
> Similarly if one doesn’t like the president or an official in the US, one is free to go around denigrating them as much as they please - not a wise choice in China.
So, a lot like under communism in Poland or Russia. Back then you could denigrate president of US as much as you wanted.
It would be abominable if employers can own their employees. It seems the better approach would be to strengthen the protection of whistle blowers so that if someone is pressured to reveal trade secrets from their previous jobs or do something else illegal they will be incentivized and empowered to not cooperate.
I've been predicting this. When Greece had their economic collapse in the 2010s, foreign companies lined up to hire everyone with more than 3 brian cells. Right now it's China, but I assume other countries with tech sectors (Israel, UAE, and India come to mind) and the like are quietly hiring people away from US/European companies, too.
the war for talent is high now, which euro / american nativists miss. highly skilled people tend to be mobile and immigrants. so yeah the politicians might have mass rallies against immigration but that's a lost cause.
> Chinese firms are focusing on several tech hubs, including Taiwan, parts of Europe and Silicon Valley. Some obscure their Chinese origins by forming local ventures that hire the employees to avoid drawing attention from local officials, authorities say.
I wonder whether the money will still be enough to offset cultural differences (political restrictions) for some immigrants, especially if they're leaving silicon valley.
I mean things like the Great Firewall getting in the way of some regular internet usage, and VPNs bypassing that while handing you a different set of frustrations. Or forgetting to toe the party line in a social-media post that happens to get too noticeable, where some apparatchik marks you for censorship or retaliation. Or maybe you do toe the line, but you're also a US citizen and the PRC decides they need some diplomatic leverage by putting someone like you in jail for some reason.
I used to live in Hong Kong back when it was a much freer place, and visited the mainland several times. But in this post-2018 high-despotism phase? The mainland is off my tourism list... or at any rate it's the kind of visit where you don't bring your regular laptop/smartphone through customs, and avoid touching your usual accounts while you're there.
I'm wondering if the idea of making a counter offer matching the Chinese offer ever crossed the execs/govt's mind?
The primary value prop China is offering to these engineers(money) is the easiest to counter. I doubt many engineers would want to move to China if they can get the same money in their current jobs.
It seems to come back to (as it often does), the makers, the people actually doing the work not being valued in proportion to their contribution.
It's baffling that execs and govt's will do everything, including prosecuting departing engineers, but balk at the simplest fix which is to pay their key people better.
Hmm so what is the competitive salary offer that covers "less occasional disappearance"
as the saying goes, "f you pay me"
We've had a case in Australia of an ex-US forces pilot trainer arrested under extradition laws because he is said to have taught Chinese pilots how to land and take off from aircraft carriers.
Think about it for a minute: His one portable skill, the IPR behind doing a thing, a mechanical act, is deemed to be an ITAR risk. Knowing how to do it, is a weaponised concept in strategic planning.
And ask yourself: Can this apply to VLSI design smarts, or OpSEC, or DEVOPS?
I'm pretty sure at this stage, it applies to Cryptography so basically, be good at maths, you have no right (specifically right: you may be, you may not) to go and work in China.
It's been true for past knowledge of workplace. NSA (see above) and probably US forces (see the start) and I would suspect, other things too. If you worked at the FTC or department of state, don't try for a working holiday abroad without permission.
This is nothing new. The British banned skilled textile workers from immigration to US.
Edit: The British also banned export of advanced textile machines during the industrial revolution to US. It's very similar to the US/Europe banning ASML machines from being sold to China.
Probably backfired, with people from other economies filling the hole, and opportunities for bilateral trade affected. Ironic given the majority of the pre industrial revolution silk weavers in London were Hugenot migrants, settled in Stepney.
Our Hugenot migrants did well with their watch industry right up until the japanese ate their lunch with quartz movements.
government preventing people from taking the maximum amount offered for their labour is incredibly communist, it's exactly what cuba does with their doctors
It really depends. Spies creating moles in government agencies by giving them money is same principle. An employee just went to work for highest bidder.
That's such a bad take it's impressive.
It would be correct if applied inside the same country, it is just protectionist.
FTC or State Department personnel are highly unlikely to have globally in-demand skills such as VLSI.
> Can this apply to [...] DEVOPS?
Maybe not DevOps. DevOps skills are covered in depth via thousands of YouTube video's. ;)
> And ask yourself: Can this apply to VLSI design smarts, or OpSEC, or DEVOPS?
Sure. People are asked to sign NDAs pertaining to those all the time and I don't see why that's any different from classified military routines. Carrier based landings have zero civilian applications - it is a skill practiced by military pilots and no one else. You cannot be a carrier-certified pilot without understanding that your skillset is a domestic security asset.
>> And ask yourself: Can this apply to VLSI design smarts, or OpSEC, or DEVOPS?
> Sure. People are asked to sign NDAs pertaining to those all the time and I don't see why that's any different from classified military routines.
As somebody who has worked at several semiconductor design companies and has met many engineers who have done the same... I don't understand your take.
Of course we do sign NDAs, which prevent us from discussing trade secrets. But our "smarts" do hop from one company to the next job, how couldn't they? We have been hired because we are experts in a particular domain and have acquired knowledge and know-how in that domain.
So if our next employer happens to be a foreign company, what do you expect us to do? I am a Canadian national and never worked for a Canadian company.
Let me finish by saying that I was pursued for years by a Chinese multinational and I turned them down again and again specifically because of their close ties to the Chinese government. That went against my personal values and I could afford to say no, but I won't judge anybody who took the job, because at the end of the day we are all just trying to feed our families.
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I read a newspaper article yesterday about a woman of Vietnamese descent who repatriated to Vietnam. I thought that symbolised the economic shift from West to East very well. Her grandparents were boat refugees from Saigon who were picked up in the South China sea by a Dutch cargo ship and now the new generation is going back to Ho Chi Minh city because the future is Asia.
The Netherlands is rich to be sure but it's all old money.
There are more opportunities for growth in Asia. Europe is very developed. Little opportunities for building something. Regulations make it hard.
It's easier to bring ideas learned while living in the west back to the east, especially a place like Vietnam where it's very much still a 3rd world country.
Doesn’t necessarily mean that. I met a girl in Austria whose parents are from Bulgaria. She wants to return to Bulgaria because it’s “easier being poor there”.
If a Chinese person is reading this, I'm open to job offers.
If you don’t invest in talent, someone else will.
I've been really interested in spending a few years living and working in China however it has been nearly impossible to get a visa so I gave up that idea.
Maybe there's still hope, hey
don’t bother. I made that mistake (spent a decade there). It just made me realise that values are so much more important than money. It made me angrier and angrier over the years living in a society like China. I just had to leave. Never support an authoritarian regime.
Could you provide some examples of what was wrong for you?
Not that poster, but the heavy handedness of the state makes the US government look like a picnic when it comes to a lot of things with regards to civil society.
So many people here were angsty about Covid lockdowns here, but those were nothing compared to in China. Similarly if one doesn’t like the president or an official in the US, one is free to go around denigrating them as much as they please - not a wise choice in China.
One needs to police their own tongue and accept draconian rules.
> Similarly if one doesn’t like the president or an official in the US, one is free to go around denigrating them as much as they please - not a wise choice in China.
So, a lot like under communism in Poland or Russia. Back then you could denigrate president of US as much as you wanted.
Maybe if US companies weren't firing US engineers and hiring offshore to save money we wouldn't have this problem.
It would be abominable if employers can own their employees. It seems the better approach would be to strengthen the protection of whistle blowers so that if someone is pressured to reveal trade secrets from their previous jobs or do something else illegal they will be incentivized and empowered to not cooperate.
Hummmmmmmm.... Have not received any job offer from my Chinese friends.... Must not be considered a talent.................
I've been predicting this. When Greece had their economic collapse in the 2010s, foreign companies lined up to hire everyone with more than 3 brian cells. Right now it's China, but I assume other countries with tech sectors (Israel, UAE, and India come to mind) and the like are quietly hiring people away from US/European companies, too.
Is it possible that the Chinese gov't is chipping in to subsidize all this ? If so, it's a policy challenge for the US.
the war for talent is high now, which euro / american nativists miss. highly skilled people tend to be mobile and immigrants. so yeah the politicians might have mass rallies against immigration but that's a lost cause.
Former HW employee here.. they will pay you well. But will 100% screw you over.
What's the story?
The employer, or the PRC? ("Yes.")
It's the same
So, the same then.
> Chinese firms are focusing on several tech hubs, including Taiwan, parts of Europe and Silicon Valley. Some obscure their Chinese origins by forming local ventures that hire the employees to avoid drawing attention from local officials, authorities say.
Where's the proof? Sounds like FUD to me.
I wonder whether the money will still be enough to offset cultural differences (political restrictions) for some immigrants, especially if they're leaving silicon valley.
I mean things like the Great Firewall getting in the way of some regular internet usage, and VPNs bypassing that while handing you a different set of frustrations. Or forgetting to toe the party line in a social-media post that happens to get too noticeable, where some apparatchik marks you for censorship or retaliation. Or maybe you do toe the line, but you're also a US citizen and the PRC decides they need some diplomatic leverage by putting someone like you in jail for some reason.
I used to live in Hong Kong back when it was a much freer place, and visited the mainland several times. But in this post-2018 high-despotism phase? The mainland is off my tourism list... or at any rate it's the kind of visit where you don't bring your regular laptop/smartphone through customs, and avoid touching your usual accounts while you're there.
[dead]